Is It Still Called ‘Old School’ If It Works? Clint Hurdle

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Send us a text Ever wonder what happens when a Major League manager storms the field to argue a call? For Clint Hurdle, former Pittsburgh Pirates and Colorado Rockies manager, one such confrontation led to an unexpected humbling when an umpire refused to eject him, saying "I've had to watch this horrible baseball for four days. You're going to have to watch it too." It's just one of many candid insights Hurdle shares in this revealing conversation. After spending decades in professional base...

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Ever wonder what happens when a Major League manager storms the field to argue a call? For Clint Hurdle, former Pittsburgh Pirates and Colorado Rockies manager, one such confrontation led to an unexpected humbling when an umpire refused to eject him, saying "I've had to watch this horrible baseball for four days. You're going to have to watch it too." It's just one of many candid insights Hurdle shares in this revealing conversation.

After spending decades in professional baseball, Hurdle now serves as special assistant to the Rockies' general manager, working with minor league affiliates and developing young talent. He calls it "probably one of the best jobs I've ever had—it just took me 45 years to get it." This role allows him to maintain family balance while sharing his baseball wisdom with the next generation.

Hurdle's coaching philosophy centers on making practice more challenging than games. Drawing from NBA coach Steve Kerr's experience guarding Michael Jordan in practice, Hurdle advises players to "trust the reps, work as hard as you can in practice so you can actually play in the game." He emphasizes connecting with players by finding common interests outside baseball—what he calls "coins"—creating relationships that transcend the sport.

On baseball's analytical evolution, Hurdle positions himself between traditions and innovations: "It's not old school versus new school, let's all be in school." This hybrid approach helped him navigate Pittsburgh's analytics-driven front office while maintaining his baseball instincts. He appreciates data's objectivity while acknowledging human development requires emotional intelligence.

Whether discussing coachability, parent relationships in high school sports, or small-market team challenges, Hurdle brings perspective shaped by almost five decades in baseball. His insights extend beyond strategy to the human elements that make baseball special. For coaches at any level looking to improve their approach, connect with players, or navigate baseball's changing landscape, Hurdle's wisdom is invaluable.

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Chapters

00:01 - Meet Clint Hurdle

03:50 - Life After MLB Management

11:12 - The Importance of Being Coachable

14:54 - Making Practice Harder Than Games

22:56 - Connecting with Young Players

29:01 - Old School vs. Analytics Balance

34:12 - Small Market Teams' Challenges

36:14 - Losing, Winning, and Unforgettable Stories

Transcript

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Have you ever wondered when a Major League manager goes out to argue a call, are they trying to get thrown out of the game?

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Well, my next guest did just that and the outcome is not what you expected.

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He played Major League Baseball.

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He managed for the Pittsburgh Pirates and the Colorado Rockies.

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Clint Hurdle next on Baseball Coaches Unplugged.

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Welcome to Baseball Coaches Unplugged with Coach Ken Carpenter, presented by Athlete One.

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Well, today I thought, since the All-Star Game is being played tonight, I thought I should release the Clint Hurdle interview that I have least the Clint Hurdle interview that I have and it gives you a great insight into what type of baseball player manager and, more importantly, the person he is, because he's such a great person and he's doing so much for the game of baseball.

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He at the time of the interview he was happily retired and now he's back as he's the bench coach for the Colorado Rockies right now.

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Please sit back and enjoy.

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I know you'll love to hear what he has to say.

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Mr Hertel, thank you very much for taking the time to join me on the podcast.

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Ken, you're welcome.

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I'm glad we were able to pull this together.

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I'm not quite technologically savvy as most people, so it took me a while to work through it.

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Thanks for your patience.

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Well, I'm in the same boat, so no need to apologize.

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Well, you retired after managing the Pirates, and what keeps you busy now in retirement?

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Well, I had two years of gainful retirement.

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What I mean by that is the first time in my life I was actually paid to not work.

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That's how bad.

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The Pirates didn't want me back managing that ball club.

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They were willing to pay me to not manage the ball club.

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So I took two years off.

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I had two children.

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My wife and I, carl, have a Madison and Christian.

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They were both still in high school.

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So I thought it'd be a good time for me to make an adjustment, plug back into the family full time, which is something that hadth 2019, and then the rest of the world retired with me on March 15th 2020, when COVID hit.

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So my first biggest task in my retirement was to take on the challenge of homeschooling two teenagers.

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My wife I don't think she's failed in anything in her life other than homeschooling.

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She tried it one year when I was a coach in Texas.

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We were in Arizona she tried to homeschool the kids and it went horribly for everybody.

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And she told me back then if there's ever a homeschooling opportunity again, I'm out, you will have to do it.

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And I'm thinking well, yeah, sure, I'll do it, because it's never going to happen.

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So, yeah, I'll take down that responsibility.

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Well, lo and behold, it landed in my lap.

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I got to homeschool two teenagers, one in the morning from about nine till 12 and the other one from one to three, and we did that for three or four months until school ran out.

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And then I just found my way to plug back into the family, whether it's going to my daughter's dance recitals, whether it was going to play family bingo up at the center where we live on the Island, whether it was to watch my son, uh, in his sport of passion crew row the boat.

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Um, be for my, be there for my wife.

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We did some exercise classes together.

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We just spent time together.

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Um, I actually enjoyed it for two years.

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And then, I want to say, in 2021, in the winter, bill Schmidt, who was the interim general manager of the Rockies, got the full-time job and he asked me to come back and help player development.

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I had spent all my career in player development.

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Bill's background was in scouting.

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He was our scouting director for over 20 years in the Rockies.

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He asked me to come back and help in the minor leagues and I said well, that's funny.

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You should ask that because really that's the only really position or opportunity I'd have any interest in back in baseball and I was to work with kids, to work with young managers, young coaches.

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So I moved upon that opportunity.

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They gave me the old fancy title of a special assistant to the general manager and now I am doing special assistant stuff for the general manager.

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I'm in Redding Pennsylvania right now watching our AA team, the Hartford Grove Goats, play.

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I spend a week with each affiliate.

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I do it two weeks a month so I still have two weeks at home and I've just probably one of the best jobs I ever had.

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It just took me 45 years to get it, yeah there you go.

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Well, do you miss putting the uniform back on?

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You know there's, I don't, I only put the uniform on.

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It's about for one, one, two day period, or actually almost one day a year.

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I manage one of the clubs for the perfect game, all-american classic, uh, the show, the showcase, operation, perfect game.

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They run a big showcase, a national showcase that I just I'm in street clothes for khakis, a golf shirt and a hat or a visor, but I do put on a uniform to manage one of the teams it's usually the East team.

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I don't miss it where it gnaws at me, where it bites on me.

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And I felt in my role that once I got outside the aspect of managing or coaching that it was much more unassuming to show up at a facility or stand on a batting cage in khakis and a golf shirt or Hawaiian shirt, rather than me in uniform.

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And just sometimes it's not so much that I'm worried, but just some people have a hard time seeing you as the person and they see you as a title.

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Well, he managed, he did this.

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What's he doing here?

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Oh, he's going to.

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He's here to fix all these things.

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I want to come up and just show up and be present, to use my eyes and ears, watch what goes on, be a voice of reason if need be, share some information if asked.

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But the uniform thing I thought it might be good separation for me to get away from that, so it doesn't.

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I've got a bunch of them hanging in the closet back at home so if I ever need one I can go get one.

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There you go.

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Well, I grew up about an hour or so from Pittsburgh in eastern Ohio and I can recall going to because that was close for me.

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I was an Indians fan Now it's the Guardians but if I wanted to go to a major league game, that was the quickest way to go to a game is just drive up to Pittsburgh and catch a game.

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Back in the early 80s I guess you could say so.

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It was always fun just getting up there to see the park isn't like it is now.

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It was the old stadium, but what a great park they have there in Pittsburgh now.

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It is a beautiful ballpark.

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Pnc Field is magnificent when the sun sets and you get the sun reflection or the sunset reflections off those buildings across the rivers.

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It's so well put together.

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It's very intimate.

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Through the years 2013 through 2015,.

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It was packed up every home game.

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We were filling it up around then then for about two and a half million people.

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I think that's capacity that all it can hold, um, would you?

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I could probably hold more, cause it's if you do 80, 81 times 38, you're going to get more than that.

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But we were packing it and it was so much fun.

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It was so much fun for the the fans-suffering fans fan base there.

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But there's a lot of good baseball in that Rust Belt that you live on, whether it's Cleveland, cincinnati, detroit.

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You know a lot of teams Pittsburgh's playing.

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There's a lot of teams on the Rust Belt.

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I kind of grew up Detroit when I grew up outside of Detroit.

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That's what we called it kind of grew up Detroit when I grew up outside of Detroit.

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That's what we called it, and I think that's one of the things that added to the lure of the fan base for Pittsburgh.

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You've got people coming from West Virginia.

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You've got people coming from Ohio.

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You've got people coming from Eastern PA, which is much different than Western PA, but it was a fun fan base.

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It was a beautiful ballpark and we gave it everything.

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We had trying to get that sixth World Series title and we weren't able to do that, but we got back into some playoff baseball so we were able to rebond the city with the baseball team and that was one of my goals coming in.

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Well, I've wanted to you know, since a lot of my listeners are high school slash college coaches and players and parents of those areas, how important is it to be coachable?

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I think it's one of the most important traits we can have as we walk through life.

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And you know, I won't say from six to 66, because six it's hard to coach anybody.

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That's six, and I don't mean that in a bad way.

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They're six.

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You know they're distracted easily and they're kids, they need to be six and my son was probably the perfect example.

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When I was fired by Colorado in 09, my son started t-ball at the age of four and I can remember just going out watching practices of four-year--old trying to play tee ball.

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It was like herding cats.

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So I would continue to encourage the coaches.

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But I'm not so sure how much of a teacher you need to be right now.

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But I think a storyteller and a communicator is going to be your best two strengths, because it's to keep the kids engaged.

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Now, as kids get older and they start playing you know in maybe a little bit more of a meaningful way in their teenage years.

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You know in maybe a little bit more of a meaningful way in their teenage years.

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Even some kids now are playing competitive baseball at the age of you know 8 to 10.

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But coachability is critical.

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I think we all should find a place to want to be a lifelong learner.

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You know I'm at the age of 66 right now and I'm still looking for ways to learn.

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There's different blogs I read.

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There's different podcasts I listen to.

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There's different books I'm reading.

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I continually want to stretch and grow and get outside my comfort zone.

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I've learned a lot being outside the game now for the past four years and not wearing a uniform and not being in the vacuum every day and in the limelight.

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But now, with more opportunity, we're working with kids in amateur ball and actually working with our young players.

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Here, coachability is critical and I think one of the best tools I've learned along the way for young players is if I think I'm going to coach somebody and whether it's a small group that I'm talking with or it's a one-on-one opportunity I have with a young player.

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I let know right up front okay, we're gonna have a little conversation.

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The conversations can't be long because the younger the kids is the time span.

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You know the attention span is just short, but I would say, when I'm done sharing what I think is important for you today, I want you to give me one or two things you heard me say because, ken, unfortunately so many times in my career.

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I've I thought I've shared this brilliant message, this critical technique, a certain mechanic that I've kind of helped put together and we're going to deploy today with our hitters or our pitchers.

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And these kids are nodding their head, shaking their head yeah, yeah, yeah, they're going.

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I can't wait for this old man to shut up.

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That's what they're saying to themselves.

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And then when they get done, they hear where I sat.

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And then three days later I have three visits.

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So one of the tools that I use with young people is that when I share, I try and keep it short.

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I try and be clear, clean, accurate with my delivery get it in, get it out.

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I have a friend who calls it be brief and be bright and then ask them back what they heard, because they might not have heard the six points that I had.

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They might have heard two of them, which is a win If they heard one of them.

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It's a win To expect them to remember all six.

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I actually try and work in threes, no more than three things that I try and teach any child, any youngster, any older player, and then I ask them at the end what did you hear me say?

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If they got nothing, I go.

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Okay, we're going to revisit it Once they have to do that again.

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They're going to listen much better the next time because they know the old man ain't going to let him go until I give him something back.

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So the importance of coachability critical.

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If you were a high school player today with the talent you had, what would you tell yourself to get the most out of your ability?

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What would you tell?

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yourself to get the most out of your ability.

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It would be trust the reps, work as hard as you can in practice so you can actually play in the game.

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Most of us have done it backwards.

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Practice is easier than the game and I learned this from Steve Kerr, the head coach with the Warriors now.

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He talked about one of the most challenging parts of his career was their team wasn't playing well and Phil Jackson came up with a new scheme he was going to scrimmage.

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They were going to scrimmage, you know, four days a week, which in the NBA you do scrimmage, but it's short incremental bursts and you stop Football.

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You know you have pad day Hockey.

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They have skate arounds.

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Baseball was the one sport that was the last one to the table about trying to regauge game speed in practice opportunities.

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You know it was old coaches.

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Throw BP 50 miles an hour, try and throw it at the sweet spot.

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You hit them nice little fungos where all their good hops, nothing's done at game speed and practice for baseball.

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Many years when I played so Steve Kerr said Phil Jackson told me that this week I was going to cover Michael.

00:16:00.712 --> 00:16:18.004
I was going to cover Michael Jordan, he said I wanted to throw up in my mouth I don't think he said that, but I know he had to feel it Um, and he said, after going through that process for a while, come game time, no matter who I got to play against or had to cover, it was easier.

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The games became easy because practice was so hard.

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So the one thing I would tell myself at Young Club Hurdle would be kid, find a way to make practice harder.

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So the and trust the reps once you get in the game, because so many times these kids do work hard at practice, but when they get in the game it's a different mindset.

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The game becomes way too important more than the practice and they lose focus of what they were doing throughout the week.

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They were creating an opportunity to be successful in the game.

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So trust your reps and make practice harder.

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I had players toward uh, uh, I want to say back in 2016,.

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We were putting together a program for the handout for the, for the parents and the people that came to the game, and I I just a simple assignment was.

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You know, I had the players fill out and ask in the questions, and one of the questions was what's your favorite MLB team?

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And I was astonished that I had three players on my high school team.

00:17:18.021 --> 00:17:35.357
They were like I don't watch high school, I don't watch major league baseball, I don't have a favorite team, and you know, I know it's important that you have to get out and play the game, but I think there's a lot can be taken away from just sitting down and watching how the best in the world do it.

00:17:35.357 --> 00:17:37.876
And you know, what are your thoughts on that?

00:17:40.230 --> 00:17:41.436
Well, no, I don't disagree.

00:17:41.436 --> 00:17:50.453
But I got to remind myself, ken, that these kids aren't me and the generation of kids.

00:17:50.453 --> 00:17:55.002
Every generation has complained about the generation that's coming up behind them.

00:17:55.002 --> 00:18:01.702
It's just because it's what we do and I can't expect kids to have the same interest that I did.

00:18:01.702 --> 00:18:03.673
I mean, I collected baseball cards.

00:18:03.673 --> 00:18:05.539
Ask how many of your players collect baseball cards.

00:18:05.539 --> 00:18:12.021
Nowadays, old men and old grown people collect baseball cards more than kids.

00:18:12.021 --> 00:18:14.352
Now it's become a collectible, a hobby.

00:18:14.352 --> 00:18:22.904
There's money tied to it, but in the bad cards, the cards like if I got a card of me right now, my card would be on my spokes on my bicycle.

00:18:22.904 --> 00:18:30.369
I'd take that clothespin and put the baseball card on there to make my bike sound like it had a motor.

00:18:30.830 --> 00:18:32.458
I understand what you're saying with watching games.

00:18:32.458 --> 00:18:40.280
I think it's good opportunities for them to watch other people play the game and they may find something they're attracted to, a style of play, an energy of play.

00:18:40.280 --> 00:18:42.838
They'll also see things that they're not attracted to.

00:18:42.838 --> 00:18:48.516
Well, that kid's got no energy or that team's got no energy, that team doesn't hustle, that team doesn't run balls out.

00:18:48.516 --> 00:18:52.276
So I do believe there's an important factor of it.

00:18:52.276 --> 00:18:56.324
I wouldn't say it's a deal breaker if they don't have a favorite team.

00:18:56.324 --> 00:19:04.339
Maybe they have a favorite team in another sport I don't know if you ask them baseball specifically but maybe they have a favorite team, but it's a different sport.

00:19:04.339 --> 00:19:05.576
Maybe that's an avenue to go.

00:19:06.270 --> 00:19:08.077
I mean, I grew up a Detroit Tiger fan.

00:19:08.077 --> 00:19:09.856
I was a fan of every Detroit team.

00:19:09.856 --> 00:19:11.215
I still am to this day.

00:19:11.215 --> 00:19:12.756
Al Kaline was my guy.

00:19:12.756 --> 00:19:18.472
I still am to this day.

00:19:18.472 --> 00:19:18.894
Al Kaline was my guy.

00:19:18.894 --> 00:19:20.762
The kids today, they have so many distractions and it's not their fault.

00:19:20.762 --> 00:19:21.445
They have those distractions.

00:19:21.445 --> 00:19:28.242
I think what we can help along the way with is eliminating some distractions for them and truly just trying to help them find.

00:19:28.242 --> 00:19:30.752
If you're playing baseball, why do you play it?

00:19:30.752 --> 00:19:32.876
Do you love the game?

00:19:32.876 --> 00:19:38.265
Is it something that your parents want you to do to get you out of the house?

00:19:38.265 --> 00:19:40.698
I mean, what's the why behind your playing?

00:19:40.698 --> 00:19:42.256
And then try and work with them on their.

00:19:42.256 --> 00:19:43.259
Why Do you love the game?

00:19:43.259 --> 00:19:45.136
Have you thought about practicing a little more?

00:19:45.136 --> 00:19:48.319
Did you ever think about playing summer ball or a travel ball?

00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:51.078
Or do you ever watch a game on TV, then go there?

00:19:51.078 --> 00:20:00.731
Or how about the junior college down the street?

00:20:00.731 --> 00:20:01.433
Have you ever watched them play?

00:20:01.453 --> 00:20:04.979
Just different questions different ways to try and plug them into something that they may have a love for.

00:20:04.979 --> 00:20:17.055
Yeah, definitely I you know, as, as a manager, what was your way of connecting with, with the younger players that were either with the Pirates or the Rockies, or even in your experience with minor leagues?

00:20:19.060 --> 00:20:19.942
It's fortunate.

00:20:19.942 --> 00:20:23.039
Well, I've got a son who's 19, first year in college.

00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:26.180
I do have a young adult daughter, maddie's 21.

00:20:26.180 --> 00:20:27.755
Maddie was born with a birth defect.

00:20:27.755 --> 00:20:32.661
She has special needs, so I've had to learn to communicate in a special needs community as well.

00:20:32.661 --> 00:20:45.323
And you know, most of the times all parents go through the situation where they have kids at home and if you don't give a kid a good answer to a question, their next question is why and why and why you learn to give a good answer.

00:20:45.323 --> 00:20:51.553
Well, even within Maddie at the age of 21 now, and in her group and her community, if you don't give a good answer, you get a lot of why.

00:20:51.553 --> 00:20:56.743
So it's helped me, think it's helped me process my answer before I give it.

00:20:56.743 --> 00:20:59.234
But I've also been able to find out.

00:20:59.234 --> 00:21:03.076
I have an older daughter, ashley, that's 38, that has helped me with my cues.

00:21:03.931 --> 00:21:08.135
I try and find coins with these young kids, ken, and what I mean by coin is the hobby.

00:21:08.135 --> 00:21:09.717
What do they like to do when they're not playing ball?

00:21:09.717 --> 00:21:12.632
It may be a musician, it may be a musician, it may be.

00:21:12.632 --> 00:21:18.897
They like dogs, some kids like to hunt, some kids like to fish, some girls like dance, they like music, whatever it may be.

00:21:18.897 --> 00:21:20.858
I look for those opportunities.

00:21:20.858 --> 00:21:24.623
Connect with them on something outside of the sport we're connected to.

00:21:24.623 --> 00:21:36.967
So every time they see me walking to them they think, oh God, here comes coach, it's going to be something about baseball, we're going to talk about baseball.

00:21:36.967 --> 00:21:38.832
I hope that I can develop a relationship with him where they see me walking through them they go oh my gosh, I wonder what he's going to ask me today.

00:21:38.832 --> 00:21:42.345
You know he's always got a different topic that we talk about, or then you find a couple topics they really like to talk about.

00:21:42.345 --> 00:21:52.320
Then all you usually have to do, ken, you ask them one question and they take it and run with it and they, they do most of the talking, which is the best way to develop that relationship.

00:21:52.781 --> 00:21:56.817
I try and stay young, I try and stay current, but I don't want to be fake about it either.

00:21:56.817 --> 00:21:59.674
There's some things that kids are interested in today that I have no interest in.

00:21:59.674 --> 00:22:00.974
I've never been a gamer.

00:22:00.974 --> 00:22:03.034
You know my game was pong.

00:22:03.034 --> 00:22:04.096
I played pinball.

00:22:04.096 --> 00:22:15.020
I'm not a gamer, and a lot of these kids play game, whether it's Madden, I get it but that, but I have no experience in it either.

00:22:15.020 --> 00:22:19.646
So I want to make sure I'm authentic and I'm real in the conversation of what we're talking about.

00:22:20.791 --> 00:22:21.816
That makes total sense.

00:22:21.816 --> 00:22:36.214
And you know, a challenge that a lot of high school coaches are facing nowadays is you, their approach to not only their players but the parents that they're having to to work with.

00:22:36.214 --> 00:22:55.696
And if you were given the assignment of coaching a high school baseball team, how do you, how would you go about getting the players to buy in, which that would probably be the easier part, but also to get the parents to buy in, even if it's the parent who, whose kid, who, isn't getting a lot of playing time?

00:22:58.185 --> 00:23:05.166
No, that that is probably one of your biggest areas where you can become more impactful or less impactful.

00:23:05.166 --> 00:23:06.588
Uh, the parent buy-in.

00:23:06.588 --> 00:23:10.355
And you know the parents.

00:23:10.355 --> 00:23:14.571
They're not going to go away, they're, they're connected to their kids.

00:23:14.571 --> 00:23:22.335
They're, more often than not, going to have an inflated evaluation of the talent level that their child has because they're parents.

00:23:22.335 --> 00:23:24.353
Some of them don't, but a lot of them do.

00:23:25.506 --> 00:23:33.315
I think the best thing I would do is try and have maybe what they used to call those fireside chat.

00:23:33.315 --> 00:23:36.394
I mean, just get the parents together and, okay, look here.

00:23:36.394 --> 00:23:36.654
Here.

00:23:36.654 --> 00:23:38.528
Here's my vision on this year.

00:23:38.528 --> 00:23:41.515
Here's the things I feel that are important.

00:23:41.515 --> 00:23:43.465
Here's where I think you can help.

00:23:43.465 --> 00:23:50.425
Here's where I think we need to be able to work through and not build walls but build bridges.

00:23:51.127 --> 00:23:52.511
You're going to want to watch your kid play.

00:23:52.511 --> 00:23:54.176
Everybody wants their kid to play.

00:23:54.176 --> 00:23:57.248
Only nine can play at a time.

00:23:57.248 --> 00:23:57.888
You know, and I'd share.

00:23:57.888 --> 00:24:00.555
I'm going to try and have a certain five-man rotation.

00:24:00.555 --> 00:24:02.378
We're going to work kids out of the bullpen.

00:24:02.378 --> 00:24:06.765
I'm going to try and get everybody involved and engaged, because nobody wants to just practice and not play.

00:24:06.765 --> 00:24:10.251
However, nine will start the game.

00:24:10.251 --> 00:24:11.476
How we work from there?

00:24:14.585 --> 00:24:21.008
We'll have conversations throughout the year where I see your son or your daughter, where they fit into the program, because I want to be authentic and I want to be real with you.

00:24:21.008 --> 00:24:30.645
I don't want to try and trick you and I know parents these days they almost feel like they're a general manager because of the financial investment involved in sports.

00:24:30.645 --> 00:24:36.448
You know I'm paying this and I'm paying that, and Johnny needs this or Joey needs that.

00:24:36.448 --> 00:24:39.955
Well, I do think honest communication is best.

00:24:39.955 --> 00:24:49.951
And then I do think there's times you got to understand that you may not like the way it is right now, or your son might not, but don't be a self-fulfilling prophet.

00:24:49.951 --> 00:24:53.057
Make sure that you encourage him when he's not playing.

00:24:53.057 --> 00:25:05.575
I could use your help then because there's going to be an opportunity where he's going to get a chance or she's going to get a chance, and if they've not worked, if they've not prepared, that chance may be fleeting, but if they have and they can move upon it.

00:25:06.057 --> 00:25:15.891
You know, one of the things I share with early groups, young groups right now is I revisit the fact that Tom Brady wasn't starting quarterback at University of Michigan Bob Greasy's kid, brian Greasy, was.

00:25:15.891 --> 00:25:26.116
I mean, there's all kinds of people that you share with the parents Look, this guy didn't start, but he was prepared and ready when an opportunity came along.

00:25:26.116 --> 00:25:28.358
High school's short, it's three years.

00:25:28.358 --> 00:25:38.685
Everybody wants to play, especially if they're a senior sometimes, and life's not fair, right, but the thing that is fair about life is it's unfair for everybody.

00:25:38.685 --> 00:25:43.652
You know, and if you're a better baseball player, you're going to play more and we want to make sure.

00:25:43.652 --> 00:25:46.835
I mean I'm going to do everything I can to help your son be the best player they can be.

00:25:46.835 --> 00:25:48.817
That's my promise to you.

00:25:48.817 --> 00:25:52.201
I need your help along the way if you're willing to give that.

00:25:54.409 --> 00:25:55.816
That's probably where I'd start.

00:25:55.816 --> 00:26:10.339
Well, being someone that you know, the amount of time that you've been around baseball, are you more of an old school type of coach or do you, you know, grow with the analytics?

00:26:10.339 --> 00:26:13.881
How was your approach to it with?

00:26:13.901 --> 00:26:15.601
the analytics.

00:26:15.601 --> 00:26:16.682
How was your approach to it?

00:26:16.682 --> 00:26:17.503
Well, no, I mean old school.

00:26:17.503 --> 00:26:27.096
Definitely, the game that I grew up with, the game that I fell in love with, isn't being played right now, but that's okay.

00:26:27.096 --> 00:26:28.900
That doesn't mean it's a bad thing.

00:26:28.900 --> 00:26:34.684
The game started to pivot in different directions, probably my last five years in Pittsburgh.

00:26:34.684 --> 00:26:40.798
The first pivot was after I got fired in Colorado in 2009, and I went to work for the MLB Network the second half of the season.

00:26:40.798 --> 00:26:56.815
I got to go back and have these pre-show meetings and all these kids and interns were working and grabbing statistics and these new group of statistics called analytics, and I started digging into some of that then, just understanding where I thought the game was headed.

00:26:56.815 --> 00:27:01.788
And not only was it headed there, it's landed there and it's set up tense there now.

00:27:01.788 --> 00:27:06.175
But I know the game's going to go on with or without me.

00:27:07.117 --> 00:27:10.113
If I want to be a part of the game, it goes back to being coachable.

00:27:10.113 --> 00:27:25.252
I needed to be coachable, I needed to learn new things and I was fortunate that when I got with a group in Pittsburgh, neil Huntington and Dan Fox were both analytically driven but also had some old school values.

00:27:25.252 --> 00:27:31.025
I was more old school driven with some analytical values that I thought made sense.

00:27:31.025 --> 00:27:33.047
So we became a hybrid model together.

00:27:33.047 --> 00:27:36.648
Because by saying that I share, I spoke.

00:27:36.648 --> 00:27:40.412
So we became a hybrid model together Because, by saying that I share, I spoke at the I-70 coaches clinic last year.

00:27:40.412 --> 00:27:46.135
I spoke at the Colorado dugout coaches convention and I actually have a presentation.

00:27:46.135 --> 00:27:58.569
It's called it's not old school versus new school, let's all be in school and I shared the importance of some old school values and some some of the importance of the new school, tech and the way they're looking at things and find.

00:27:58.569 --> 00:28:04.625
Find that hybrid model that fits and everybody can work with and try and learn from one another.

00:28:04.625 --> 00:28:10.010
It goes back to being a hitting coach and then having young players that became these hitting gurus.

00:28:10.010 --> 00:28:11.873
They all have their own hitting coach in the off season.

00:28:12.806 --> 00:28:18.117
I felt I was best served if I built a relationship, tried to build a bridge with their hitting guru rather than build a wall.

00:28:18.117 --> 00:28:21.089
We both want the same result for the player.

00:28:21.089 --> 00:28:32.509
We may have different thoughts and ideas how we're going to help him get there, but it can't be clandestine and it can't be leveraged and it can't be opportunistic and it can't be selfish.

00:28:32.509 --> 00:28:36.856
So right now where the game is.

00:28:36.856 --> 00:28:39.099
I've learned a lot in the last five years.

00:28:39.099 --> 00:28:42.951
Everything that's new doesn't mean it's good.

00:28:42.951 --> 00:28:44.455
It's been life.

00:28:44.455 --> 00:28:46.092
Life has gone that way for a long time.

00:28:46.092 --> 00:28:49.474
There are certain things I think that are new, that I really don't have a lot of time for.

00:28:49.474 --> 00:28:52.855
There are some things that are new that I go, wow, I wish I would have had that earlier.

00:28:52.855 --> 00:29:00.366
So I'm learning as I go along.

00:29:00.386 --> 00:29:02.315
There's value in some of the analytics, there's a science to it which is hard to argue.

00:29:02.315 --> 00:29:13.391
And one thing about numbers is numbers come without emotions and humans have emotions and humans can be messy, and so there is a side of the numbers that I kind of lean into because they're unemotional.

00:29:13.391 --> 00:29:15.576
I as a coach can have recency bias.

00:29:15.576 --> 00:29:17.532
I might like one player more than the other.

00:29:17.532 --> 00:29:20.691
You know we can say we need to like them all the same.

00:29:20.691 --> 00:29:21.913
Yeah, we need to Do you.

00:29:22.115 --> 00:29:25.433
I don't know, it was hard for me to like every player the same, but I tried.

00:29:25.433 --> 00:29:38.181
And then the players you like a little bit more than the other players, you know well, yeah, he had a pretty good day when in reality, he probably had an okay day the kid that I didn't maybe like as much if he had an okay day, I probably thought, oh, he was below average.

00:29:38.181 --> 00:29:40.372
It's called recency bias.

00:29:40.372 --> 00:29:47.112
You know, what happened lately is what you hold on to, so I'm still learning.

00:29:47.112 --> 00:29:52.773
I'd like to think I'm in school and I'm not so much old school that I can't appreciate new school.

00:29:53.634 --> 00:29:55.678
Well for the MLB fan that's out there.

00:29:55.678 --> 00:30:10.717
Should Major League Baseball make changes to give the small market teams an even playing field, because it's tough to compete with the Dodgers and the Yankees.

00:30:12.405 --> 00:30:13.951
Yeah, and neither one's won a World Series.

00:30:13.951 --> 00:30:14.614
In how many years?

00:30:14.614 --> 00:30:16.651
The Dodgers won the 2020 World Series?

00:30:16.651 --> 00:30:21.615
Covid year, it's not the same but they won a World Series.

00:30:21.615 --> 00:30:24.053
The Yankees haven't been there in a long time.

00:30:24.464 --> 00:30:26.834
There's arguments on both sides of this fence.

00:30:26.834 --> 00:30:30.071
Look at what the job Tampa Bay's done with the small market.

00:30:30.071 --> 00:30:35.232
Year after year after year, milwaukee's come up and done a pretty nice job.

00:30:35.232 --> 00:30:36.892
There's always a pop-up team or two.

00:30:36.892 --> 00:30:43.808
Cleveland continues to be impressive in that small market Until they do it.

00:30:44.592 --> 00:30:45.515
You've got to figure it out.

00:30:45.515 --> 00:30:47.148
I mean, the NBA has a.

00:30:47.148 --> 00:30:51.038
You know they've got a different level.

00:30:51.038 --> 00:30:53.973
You know everybody talks about a ceiling.

00:30:53.973 --> 00:31:04.515
I thought maybe raising the floor, where every team had to spend at least the same amount of money and make it $100 million to raise the floor rather than have a ceiling.

00:31:04.515 --> 00:31:06.651
But they haven't done it.

00:31:06.651 --> 00:31:11.933
And I don't know if the owners keep paying top dollar for free agent players.

00:31:12.566 --> 00:31:14.473
So why would you think that's going to go away?

00:31:14.473 --> 00:31:17.472
There's just too many oxymorons.

00:31:17.472 --> 00:31:19.432
I mean, there's too many conflicting things that go on.

00:31:19.432 --> 00:31:20.911
People say this, but then they do that.

00:31:20.911 --> 00:31:28.335
So until we can get everybody on the same page, it makes it hard for small market teams.

00:31:28.335 --> 00:31:29.605
You look at what they did in Florida.

00:31:29.605 --> 00:31:31.112
What they're doing in Florida now is hard.

00:31:31.112 --> 00:31:32.666
Pittsburgh, it's been hard for a few years.

00:31:32.666 --> 00:31:33.028
We Florida.

00:31:33.028 --> 00:31:33.990
What they're doing in Florida now is hard.

00:31:33.990 --> 00:31:34.830
Pittsburgh it's been hard for a few years.

00:31:34.830 --> 00:31:37.976
We had a nice run for a time, but the teams of tennis what's going on in Oakland has been hard.

00:31:37.976 --> 00:31:42.906
You'd like to think there's a better way, but we haven't seemed to come up with one yet.

00:31:43.669 --> 00:31:50.634
Well, I asked this question of every guest that I have on the podcast, do you?

00:31:50.715 --> 00:31:51.924
hate losing or love winning?

00:31:51.924 --> 00:31:54.271
It's a great question.

00:31:54.271 --> 00:32:06.310
Um now, yeah, I mean hands of a flame, and if I had to give you one answer, which is pretty unfair, uh, I would say I love winning.

00:32:06.310 --> 00:32:12.906
However, the love of winning, the love of winning.

00:32:12.906 --> 00:32:25.469
Sometimes so many things get sacrificed along the way Health, family, truthfully, lessons learned, because I would tell my players there's winning and there's learning.

00:32:25.469 --> 00:32:27.428
You only lose when you don't learn anything.

00:32:27.428 --> 00:32:35.071
We could have a bad game, but if we came up with a couple nuggets on things that we can learn to do better, that's not losing.

00:32:36.401 --> 00:32:42.588
Pain brings immediate attention to a specific area, and losing usually does that.

00:32:42.588 --> 00:32:45.450
It brings immediate attention to a specific area.

00:32:45.450 --> 00:33:00.611
But I think there's got to be a calmness to understanding why you lost, and what I've always tried to share with my players, coaches and teams is, if you meet the demands of the game as they present themselves, you put yourself in a better position to win the game.

00:33:00.611 --> 00:33:06.730
If you do not meet the demands of the game and you know what I mean by demands of the game runner at third less than two outs.

00:33:06.730 --> 00:33:16.352
Runner at second no outs first pitch strikes, two out walks, all the little things that come together that you know, leaving runners on base and not scoring them.

00:33:16.352 --> 00:33:20.567
One of the things I'll jump backwards just tell you.

00:33:20.607 --> 00:33:26.852
One of the things I don't appreciate about analytics is that they've lessened it, cheapened the value of a run batted in.

00:33:26.852 --> 00:33:37.567
But I'll tell you this there's 15 major league games tonight, 30 teams and half the managers that lose.

00:33:37.567 --> 00:33:41.747
Every one of them will bring up in his post-game conference we had opportunities to score and we did.

00:33:41.747 --> 00:33:44.642
The run batted in is a valuable number.

00:33:44.642 --> 00:33:47.788
It always has been, it always will be in my mind.

00:33:47.788 --> 00:33:51.410
And the losing part of it you don't meet the demands of the game.

00:33:51.410 --> 00:33:54.883